55 thoughts on “Hirschhorn’s Ratings vs UMR’s Ratings”

1. DEAR MR JOEL HIRSCHHORN:

   1 As some tell it, the biggest of all the problems on the terribly vexed set of Apocalypse Now was Marlon Brando. According to director Francis Ford Coppola, Brando showed up entirely unprepared: he was grossly overweight, had not read Joseph Conrad’s The Heart of Darkness (the novel upon which the film was based), and was eager to stall the production to increase his already inflated salary.
   Except this is not what happened. Letters between Brando and Coppola, audios of the two discussing the film’s conception on a houseboat while filming was suspended, and Brando’s personal script, notes, and the many books he read and annotated for the film — reveal that Brando not only was well prepared for the production, but also contributed ideas and script revisions that shaped the entire film.

   2 Brando’s reading to prepare for the film included numerous other books and materials: The Pentagon Papers, writings by anthropologist James Frazer and philosopher Hannah Arendt, T.S. Eliot’s “Hollow Men,” first-person accounts of the U.S. Vietnam mission, and more.
   Coppola recognized how crucial Brando’s knowledge was to his film. Writing the actor just before he arrived on set, Coppola admitted that directing the film had become a “nightmare” that he would rely on Brando to get through. “Together we can accomplish anything,” he wrote — “even make a movie about Vietnam.”

   3 In fact, Coppola relied on Brando so much that Brando himself — who had famously remarked that the only people who could write better acting lines were Tennessee Williams and Shakespeare — became uncomfortable with the authority he was granted. As he wrote to Coppola in a letter, “It’s not really my job to be involved in the overall concept of the script.”
   Regardless of Brando’s discomfort, audiotapes of discussions between the two confirm that Coppola drew heavily on Brando’s vision of Kurtz, and of the whole film.

   4 Michael Herr, the Vietnam War novelist who revised the screenplay on set, recalled that Brando “wrote a stream of brilliant lines for his character.” Even Coppola’s biographer, Peter Cowie, notes that Kurtz’s domain “houses the core of the film’s meaning, and Kurtz’s scenes alight unerringly on the reasons for the American predicament in Vietnam.”

   5 If Coppola in fact relied heavily on Brando, then why have we been told otherwise? Coppola needed a scapegoat. By then a world-famous director who had won two Academy Awards, Coppola this time was in over his head. As the director later admitted, the film production was akin to its subject — Vietnam. Instead of focusing on his inability to control the fiasco, Coppola turned on Brando.

   6 Brando had many personality defects but they should not detract from Brando’s legacy. His success was due not only to looks and talent, but to his extensive preparations for his roles. He was a genius in the minds of those who directed him (Elia Kazan), those who wrote for him (Tennessee Williams), and those in a position to know (Laurence Olivier).

   7 With Brando’s 4000-book library, his personal film scripts, his letters, his audio archive — all available since his death — we now have the documents to debunk the myths surrounding him, and give America’s greatest actor credit for his contribution to the history of film.

   8 More and more contemporary critics not influenced by the lies told about Brando in his heyday are coming round to the view that his short performance in Apocalypse Now when examined in depth was another of his masterpieces and that f you listen carefully he tells you why the US failed in Vietnam
   Yours sincerely
   Susan L Mizruchi Professor of English Boston University

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   1. Hey Professor Susan. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and research on Marlon Brando. I imagine Mr. Hirschhorn had lots of conversations on his placing of Brando so low. He did beat Elvis and Roger Moore on his rankings….that has to be worth something.

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2. Dear JOEL HIRSCHHORN
   As one of my all time fictitious idols Dalton in Road House said “Opinions vary.” –

   (1) “The most underrated performance of a historical figure that I have ever seen was Brando’s Napoleon in Desiree” [Lord Laurence Olivier but maybe he knew nothing about acting!!]
   (2) ” And to think they put him down for that great performance in Mutiny on the Bounty.” Richard Dreyfuss.
   (3) “The best performance that I have ever got from an actor was Brando’s in 1967s Reflections in a Golden Eye” [John Houston]. “When one considers how Brando’s performance in that film was received it is no wonder that he seemed to lose interest in his craft for a time.” [Famed film historian and author David Shipman].
   (4) “ Though not a singer, in some strange way Brando was able to overshadow Sinatra in Guys and Dolls “ [David Shipman again]
   (5) “I have wanted to do more films and certainly when I watched Marlon Brando in the 1958 The Young Lions I wished that I could act like that.” [British comedian Max Bygraves].
   (6) All the cast of Superman the Movie seemed to be enjoying themselves but the greatest demonstration of old- fashioned Hollywood professionalism was provide by Brando in his 15 minute appearance at the start” [Newsweek USA Magazine]
   (6) The greatest performance by an actor in the entire history of the cinema was in my opinion Brando’s in Last Tango in Paris. [Alexander Walker renowned film critic of London Evening Standard.]
   (7) “Who’s the best actor ever ? Bud when he wants to be.” Hank Fonda

   2 However I will “defend to the death” your right to hold contrary opinions but if your description of Brando’s career accurately reflects the achievements of a performer whom Time magazine listed as one of the 100 MOST IMPORTANT people of the 20th Century then to paraphrase Sgt Bilko’s Colonel “They’ll be queuing up to see what those that didn’t make the 100 look like.” As it is Time Magazine put Brando in the general company of people like Albert Einstein and President F D Rosevelt both of whom headed the lsit However as you have also listed American Legend and box office giant Duke Wayne low at 186th perhaps there is a parallel universe somewhere in which the likes of Brando and Wayne have had different careers from the ones that seasoned observers, scholars and historians know about. Conversely “When the legend suits better than the truth print the legend” [The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance” 1962]

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   1. Hey Bob…..good counter points. I figured this has let you pull out countless quotes and tidbits on Brando. I think it is safe to say that Hirschhorn’s opinion on Brando is not what most critics, actors and movie lovers think.

      As for John Wayne, Hirschhorn does offer up a rating on ALL of Wayne’s movies, including his entire 1930s B budget movies. A quick look at his ratings after Stagecoach show about a 3.00 average rating…. after he escaped those B movies.

      You might disagree with his ratings…..but his rating of every movie is why this website tries to list every movie too….without Hirschhorn my pages might only be Top 10s.

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3. So what is this page about Bruce? [cue Bruce screaming] 😉

   It can get confusing. For instance on the UMR chart is that Leslie Howard in the no.1 spot, why him? Oh I see it’s the other way round, the last number is the top number, Elvis is king. Of course he is. I like that chart. Let me check the Star Score… Leslie Howard! Noooo anyone but him… oh okay it’s in reverse – Elvis yeah! Where are Beatles? [Stop it Steve!]

   UMR rank is that low number tops or high number tops? Grace Kelly no.1? Or Burt Reynolds no.1? I’m rooting for old Burt with Roger at no.2, or am I reading it wrong?

   Finally we come to AVG UMR Score and Burt is no.1, Roger no.2 and Charles Bronson at no.4, wow that’s greet mon. I like this list.

   Vote Up!

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   1. Hey Steve….I fixed some of the columns to hopefully make it easier to read. Leslie Howard was Rating the Movie Star top pick…..granted they had James Dean, Eddie Murphy (2 movies) and Ben Kingsley (2 movies) ahead of them….but with limited movies I did not include them here.

      Sorry your boy Elvis did not rate well in either source. He does slightly better at UMR….that has to be worth something. Thanks for checking out this confusing list….I tried to take a short cut and it backfired on me.

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4. 1 Opinions are like a** ***** everybody’s got one.” [Inspector Harry Callahan]

   (1) ROGER EBERT
   Brando was the most influential actor in the history of the movies. He was instrumental in the success of some of the greatest films of all time. In all the seasons of his life, he was unmistakably, defiantly, brilliantly Marlon Brando. Look at old movies on TV, and you will sense a difference in the acting before and after 1947. That was the year Brando first played on the Broadway stage Tennessee Williams’ macho, petulant Stanley Kowalski in “A Streetcar Named Desire.” His performance broke through some kind of psychic barrier, freeing actors of his and later generations to tap emotions that most earlier actors were unable or willing to reveal. [“He gave us our freedom.” Jack Nicholson”]

   (2) VARIETY To celebrate its 100th anniversary, showbiz trade bible Variety has compiled a list of the 100 most iconic entertainers of ALL TIME. Variety isn’t publishing the story until Monday, but topping the list are the Beatles and the rest of the top 10 are Louis Armstrong, Lucille Ball, Humphrey Bogart, Marlon Brando, Charlie Chaplin, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe and Elvis Presley. Sinatra is 11th
   (3) AMERICAN FILM INSTITUTE and TIME MAGAZINEMarlon Brando was ranked by the American Film Institute as the fourth-greatest movie star among male movie stars and Brando was one of only three professional actors, along with Charlie Chaplin and Marilyn Monroe, named in 1999 by Time magazine as one of its 100 Most Important People of the 20th Century
   (4) THE HISTORICAL MOVIE ENCYCLOPEDIA The Enclclopedia has listed the most influential film personalities in the history of movies- directors, producers, writers, stars etc – and in ranking order these are considered to be the top 5 actors/actresses:1/ Chaplin2/Mary Pickford3/Wayne4/ Brando5/ DeNiro
   (5) ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY’s LIST OF THE 15 GREATEST HUMAN ENTERTAINERS OF ALL TIME1/ Beatles2/Elvis 3/ Monroe4/ Spielberg5/Madonna6/ Sinatra7/Michael Jackson8/Lucille Ball9/ Bob Dylan10/ Brando 11/ Streisand12/ Hitchcock13/ Rolling Stones14/Audrey Hepburn15/ Wayne
   (6) MARTIN SCORSESE
   There is Before Brando and After Brando. He is The Marker. I used to sit and speculate about how he would next amaze us.
   2 Joel Hirschhorn and his like! “Who ARE those guys?” [Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid 1969]. ANY performer who is repeatedly spoken of in the same breath as entertainment giants like Chaplin, Sinatra, Elvis, and Hitchcock is beyond doubt a person who has achieved a plateau of personal greatness at which criticism however justified has become superfluous. “Being There” is what counts as the Peter Sellers film implied.

   3 Dammit Jack Wilson you got me to draw again!

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   1. Hey Bob.
      We realize that everyone takes his or her favorite movie stars personally and doesn’t want them graded like a side of beef. Rating the Movie Stars simply wants to compare the careers of various stars and find a new way and novel way to judge their achievements. To do that, we had to set up a system for rating every movie star and apply it unblinkingly to all.

      We believe our rating system offers an interesting and fun way to look at the careers of these movie stars. However, we should point out two ways in which the ratings are inevitably skewed. Great stars – who made many, many movies and had fallow periods, whether at the beginning where they learned their craft or in the twilight when they worked on in spite of falling abilities – will suffer lower averages. And rising stars will inevitably have inflated scores. They’ve started out hot, and haven’t had time to make “filler films” that plaque all but the greatest superstars.

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      1. HI JOEL

         1 Thanks for your explanation.

         2 Steve Lensman thinks that in the now frequent absences of the Cogerson site’s founder an Automation has taken over control of the site and is producing the latest posts. If so that Automation’s UMR scores are the ones that seem most realistic.

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         1. Hey Bob…. I hope you see that I have Brando in my Top 25….thinking you like my rankings better than his rankings.

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   2. Hey Bob.
      Brando! The name inspires awe in other actors, and respect from most critics. When he performs badly (as he did in Bedtime Story and Mutiny on the Bounty), his champions apologize by criticizing the director, the film or unsympathetic studio executives. However, an overall view of this actor’s career indicates that he can veer wildly from brilliance to staggering mediocrity, and outside factors aren’t always to blame.

      On the Waterfront brought him the Oscar he should have won for A Streetcar Named Desire. Even Brando detractors agreed that these two portrayals were beyond praise. From this point, however, opinions became more divided on the merit of Brando’s work.

      Nobody cared for Desiree or Brando’s portrayal of Napoleon, and he was a liability to the over-produced Guys and Dolls. He couldn’t sing or dance, and Frank Sinatra was justified in referring to him derisively as “mumbles”. The Teahouse of the August Moon was another mistake. The mumbling continued in The Fugitive Kind. Brando’s interpretation of Fletcher Christian provoked film critic Leonard Martin into writing, “Where are you, Clark Gable?”

      The Godfather restored him to favor. Last Tango In Paris was both vilified and worshipped, but Brando was praised for taking the role as far as it would go. There was only criticism for Missouri Breaks, and his bit in Superman added nothing to the picture (except a three and a half million dollar salary to the budget). In Apocalypse Now, he played the mad Commander Kurtz – the only jarring element in an otherwise powerful film about Vietnam.

      Marlon Brando appears to have retired after enduring a barrage of criticism in the last decade. Either the Great Method Actor has run out of method, or he’s made enough money.

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   3. Hey Bob….I figured it was fitting to hear directly from the late Joel Hirschhorn. So I took a few sections from his book. I figure the Brando will get you fired up. Just remember it is very difficult to argue with a dead man. 🙂

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5. Interesting. Not sure how to read this table. Nice to see what influenced you so much. You have built a wonderful movie website.

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   1. Hey Helakoski. Thanks for the visit, comment and compliment. I have changed some of the columns to hopefully make it easier to read.

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