229 thoughts on “Myrna Loy Movies”

1. “THERE WAS A GALLOP POLL…THE TOP FEMALE STARS WERE DAVIS, ROGERS, LOY.”
   [It is presumed that a Gallup poll is meant, named after Dr George Gallup who founded the organisation in 1935] ?

   (1) In the British General Election of 2015 all the final opinion polls predicted the return of a Conservative minority government. Actual Result: a Conservative MAJORITY government
   (2) In the 2016 referendum about whether the United Kingdom should leave the European Union most opinion polls and other tests of public opinion such as the bookmakers and the other betting markets predicted overwhelmingly that the UK would vote to stay in the Union. Actual Result: the UK has voted to leave the European Union.
   (3) Two years ago a British fan magazine asked its readers who was the greatest actress of all time. Reply: Elizabeth Hurley.
   (4) I am sure that Americans can identify instances where opinion polls and other surveys have made predictions to them that turned out to be devoid of reality
   (5) Anyway I don’t think we need opinion polls or Quigley to tell us Grable – or Loy – were popular because not only was Grable for example a Forces favourite whose pinup photos sold in millions but the US Treasury Department officially listed her as the highest salaried woman in America in 1946 & 47. Those old studio moguls tended not to give away money: if Grable was getting more cash from them than any other actress at a given time they were certain they were going to get a good return on their money, and I have no doubt that Myrna was deservedly well paid too but all the evidence available poses a huge question mark overt the contention that she was “the most successful box office actress of all time.”

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   1. Hey Bob…good stuff that you shared. So we agree….the greatest actresses were Loy, Mansfield, Bardot, Sheedy and Hurley….lol.

      I think we can agree to disagree on this matter. I have to go now…I have an appointment with a plastic surgeon to get me a Loy nose….lol.

      Grable had a great run too. Sadly both of them were ignored by the AFI people. Thanks for all the Loy feedback even if it is so wrong…lol.

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      1. Thanks for providing me with a D list Bruce !

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   2. Hi Bob

      “Gallop” “Gallup”
      Well, whether it was due to my spell check correcting Gallup, or my arthritic fingers, or, as is most likely, just encroaching senility, that was a bad one.

      As for the gist of your argument, I wouldn’t dismiss polls of the general public, as they are one of the few snapshots we get of the opinions of ordinary ticket buyers. Quigley is polling theatre managers at a time when many theatres were tied to the studios. Are polls flawed. Of course. There is no definitive source for historians on these topics, I think.

      You are totally correct about Betty Grable being a big draw and that Zanuck would not have continued putting her in big Technicolor musical productions is she wasn’t delivering at the box office. But that was not exactly my point, which I will get to on a later post.

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      1. HI JOHN

         1 Gallup was just a petty passing point and if you do have joints problems – I know I have at times – please forgive my insensitivity.

         2 The problem with the polls is that they are taken not just as a general useful guide but as gospel and are in effect allowed to take over for example political election campaigns and no matter how often they are proved wrong they continue to be regarded as sacrosanct. I remember after they had got the 1970 British General Election disastrously wrong one of the pollsters was challenged by a TV interviewer as the how they had made such a mess of it and he replied “We’re polling at the moment to find out.” Hench it always touches a raw nerve with me when polls are quoted as if they are definitive. In our hobby the only thing that should be regarded as definitive is Bruce!

         3 I was actually hitherto unaware of the detail that you provided about the technicolour films of Grable/Loy and was grateful to have that information.

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2. Hey Bob….friendly disagreements are fun. When I look at the top grossing stars on our $100 million box office hit table….when I see Samuel L. Jackson so high….I think he is a supporting character in lots of box office hits. When I see Myrna Loy I see an “above the title star”. Her above the title run was incredible.

   I think you could figure out a way to downgrade all the actresses on the page. Joan Crawford….take away the Clark Gable movies…and you lose a ton of $100 million hits. Take away K. Hepburn’s 9 Spencer Tracy movies and you lose billions in her career total. A. Hepburn seemed to only star opposite the biggest stars of they day…Bogart, Grant, Cooper, Holden, Peck and Richard Dreyfuss (ok….joking about Dreyfuss).

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   1. This is from the top of the page…but I think it speaks volumes of her popularity back then.

      “Adored by moviegoers, Myrna was crowned “Queen of Hollywood” in 1938, with twenty million fans casting their votes in the largest poll of its kind ever conducted. Spencer Tracy was besotted with her, Valentino and Barrymore smitten and President Roosevelt obsessed, whilst Miss Loy had to push Gable off her front-step for “getting fresh”! Her extraordinary profile also supplied plastic surgeons with the most requested image of the 1930s, despite Myrna never having gone under the knife.”

      Anyway…it will be awhile before I respond back….not that I am mad….just have to go to work…..but I did update Sir Larry’s page. Hope your day is awesome.

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      1. “TAKE BETTY GRABLE —- TECHNICOLOUR —-WAS A TREMENDOUS BOX OFFICE DRAW.”
         1 Undeniably – but to make an issue of it strikes me as almost equivalent to saying that the special effects made Star Wars more popular than it might otherwise have been so therefore the credit that goes to George Lucas, Harrison Ford etc is possibly diminished. The fact is that Grable’s looks and persona ideally suited the technicolour movies that she made. Myrna Loy and many others would not have suited those films

         2 Anyway in her top star days from 1940 until 1953 Grable made 5 black and white movies and they have a total adjusted gross of 775 million dollars which averages out over the 5 at 155 million per movie. The Cogerson overall average gross for the films in which Myrna Loy appeared is 118.7 million dollars and The Red Pony’s colour did not help Loy take that one beyond an adjusted gross of around 66 million even with Mitchum in tow.

         3 You can rationalise most things that suit your purposes and make a case of some kind for many arguments that enhance your own contentions, but it does strike me amusingly as cherry picking to on the one hand praise for example Gary Cooper for being able to take advantage of the new sound techniques of his day [denied to past generations] but then to attempt to minimise Grable’s success by emphasising that she was able to capitalise on the technicolor processes of her era. It truly shows that the tank can be half empty and half full at the same time! “Cometh the hour cometh the man!” Certainly 20th Century Fox executives thought so as they publicly stated that they were able to use the massive profits from ”Betty Grable movies” to fund other prestigious projects that they could not have otherwise afforded.

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         1. Hi Bob, back again.

            “equivalent to saying special effects made Star Wars more popular”

            Well, exactly. There is a synergy of factors for making hits at the box office. Co-stars, special effects, Technicolor, wide-screen, being based on a best-selling novel or hit play or musical, a director whose name draws fans (DeMille, Capra, Hitchcock). Any or all of these factors effect the box office. My take would be to ignore all of them and simply go by ticket sales. We simply could never judge the degree of their impact. Did folks buy a ticket to San Francisco to see Gable or an earthquake? To The Ten Commandments to see Heston or the parting of the Red Sea? Or, as is likely, both. But as to what actually impacted the fans most, who can say?
            And, in fairness, YOU were the one who raised the issue of co-stars to diminish Loy’s status. This opens the door to all the other factors such as color and special effects also being brought in.

            Interesting point on The Red Pony. It was a serious drama, and as Hollywood found out, this type of film didn’t get the same kick from Technicolor as other genres such as musicals and costume pictures did.

            “You can rationalize most things which suit your purpose”

            Yes, and . . .

            “Gary Cooper and new sound technology” “Grable and Technicolor”

            But this doesn’t address my point at all. Sound and the camera changed acting. Stage actors had to play to the back row. Movie actors to the camera and to the microphone. Cooper, among others, but certainly prominently, had the technique and skill to act for the camera, and so was very successful. His peers admitted they could learn from him. It wasn’t a question of special technology. Everyone had to act for the same cameras and microphones. I think it a fair point is that Cooper not being stage-trained may also have been a limiting factor in the long run. But I recently watched the primitive 1929 The Virginian, and I have a hard time conceiving of anyone from any era being plucked up and put in to replace him doing better or perhaps even as well.
            Now as to Technicolor, is there a different technique to acting before a color camera versus acting before a black and white camera? There are obvious differences between the stage and movies, or between silent films and talkies. Perhaps I have missed something, but I have never read a comment by an actor saying that acting in color is somehow different from acting in black and white.
            My point with Technicolor and Grable is that if you are going to drag in factors such as co-stars to diminish other performers, it is only fair to point out that Technicolor itself was a big draw during Grable’s era and certainly lifted her grosses.

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            1. 1 Ronald Coleman made a sound movie before Cooper and was Oscar nominated for it and went on to make a number of successful movies in the first decade and in classics such as A Tale of Two Cities tackled lines far more difficult than “Yup” “Nope” and “Howdy”; and a whole new breed of actors whose voices were suited to sound – just as Grable’s qualities were suited to, but not limited by, technicolor – came forth of whom Cooper was one of the most successful but not THE most successful. In my opinion in his case for once the ageing process worked for an actor instead of against him because I perceive Cooper to have been very stiff in his early days but as he got older he became the highly skilled performer that you seem to think he was in the beginning. He was absolutely superb in the likes of High Noon, Vera Cruz and 10 North Frederick – no argument there.

               2 In many other respects you seem to have misunderstood what I have been saying in that of course all actors have co-stars but the biggest bucks go to those who can “open” a film. The likes of Grable,Day and Crawford could do that time after time
               as Cruise, Hanks, Willis and Julia Roberts have been able to do in the modern cinema whereas we do not have any evidence that Loy could do it over a sustained period other than to a limited extent and the studio evidently thought not or she would have been billed first more than 13 times out of some 70 films and they would not have felt the need to surround her with SO MANY big stars.

               3 However your most telling point is when you ask “Who can say?” what have been the precise factors that have made a movie a hit and it therefore follows that it is impossible to be dogmatic that Myrna Loy and particularly she was “the most successful box office actress of all time.” That simply has been my point.

            2. Bob

               No dispute about Ronald Colman’s abilities. He knew how to act to the camera from his silent movie days, and could handle dialogue from his stage training. Also, he seems from the beginning to have understood to rein it in for the microphone, so he never seemed to be playing to the back row. I don’t dispute anyone rating him overall above Cooper.

               But Cooper was superb even in 1929 in The Virginian. There was a lot of “Yup and nope” stuff, for comic effect, as his shyness amused even Molly. But there were also some rather lengthy speeches. Clearly as a minimally educated cowboy, The Virginian was hardly eloquent, but I can’t imagine anyone playing him better than Cooper did.

               And, if brought up, Cooper was hardly just playing himself. Off everything I have read, Cooper was not exactly awkward and tongue-tied around women. We should all do as well!

            3. JOHN

               1 Cooper actually saw the fun in what I have been saying. I can recall him visiting England in the 1950’s and for a spoof on television the hosts would feign asking him all of these intellectual questions and with tongue in cheek he would keep answering yup and nope.

               2 Actually in the TV series The Virginian James Drury as the latter is lying on a bunk room bed reading a book when Trampas comes in and asks him what he’s reading and he replies “A book by an English guy called William Shakespeare.”

               3 Cooper and Coleman acted together in The Winning of Barbara Worth and I’ve always wanted to see it but it was silent so the changes are not great. BOB

            4. Good points from Bob and John….glad my post https://www.ultimatemovierankings.com/2016/11/1115-myrna-successful-box-office-actress-time-loy-page-11-new-movies-36-worldwide-box-office-grosses/ has generated so much discussion.

         2. Bob

            Just a short comment on Cooper in The Virginian. I was very impressed with one special aspect of his performance. Among other cowboys he was a man among men, the leader of the men. The alpha male. Steely and dominant. Summed up with the famous line “When you call me that, smile.” Around Molly he was a shy, bashful boy who didn’t seem to know what to do with his gangly legs, or with his hands. The different body language between these two aspects of his character are striking. Interestingly, the Cooper Virginian also reads Shakespeare. Molly gives him Romeo and Juliet to read. His reaction is that Romeo blew it by not being more direct. When Molly teases that “Well, you are no Romeo.” his answer is that he might not be able to talk like Romeo, but he feels the same as Romeo inside. And then he turns into the alpha male right there with her.
            Cooper’s performance worked very well as he was still in his twenties and in b/w photography looked young enough, and yet mature enough, to yoke these two different personality traits convincingly.

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            1. HI JOHN

               1 That’s obviously where the TV Virginian got the idea from though in that series the Virginian was played as a kind of eunuch who because of the audience it was designed to attract wasn’t interested in women – just wanted to round up bad guys!

               2 We’ll leave the last word on Cooper for now to John Wayne. Wayne despised High Noon because he felt that it showed small town America up as cowards and he said Coop was miserable specimen of a hero because “he allowed his wife to save him.”

               3 Actually the UnAmerican Activities Committee wiped the floor with Coop and humiliated him publicly and made him grovel in television recordings of the proceedings. I could never understand why unless it was because of High Noon because from what I can remember of Cooper’s The Fountainhead it was right up the Committee’s street in terms of the stance that Coop took in that one.

               4 You’re right about him and his women though. In fact it is said that he used to be one of the guest members at Sinatra’s ‘Clan’ parties because those gatherings attracted a lot of freewheeling females. That is why I found his Ten North Frederick
               performance so convincing. I’ve mentioned on this site before that Coop bowed out in good company because his final film The Naked Edge was produced by Marlon Brando Senior.

            2. 1 In some ways even the young Cooper WAS my kind of guy because from 1936 onward when Marlene Dietrich got billed above him in Desire Coop never accepted 2nd billing (apart from those all star variety nonsenses) – “Check it out!”

               2 Indeed Burt Lancaster in wanting Coop to co-star with him in Vera Cruz which was made by Burt’s own production company said that he knew that to get Gary he Burt would have to accept 2nd billing.

               3 However maybe Gary would have had a more satisfactory career if he like K Hepburn had settled for a lot of 2nd billed prestige roles.

            3. Bob

               “it showed small town America up as cowards”

               A valid criticism of High Noon, at least concerning frontier America.

               “miserable specimen of a hero”

               Well, I recall Audie Murphy being saved by his leading lady in The Quick Gun. And Jimmy Stewart being saved by Marlene in Destry Rides Again. I guess to Wayne that makes Murphy and Stewart miserable specimens, for what his opinion on the matter is worth.

            4. Bob

               “maybe Gary would have had a more satisfactory career if he, like K Hepburn had settled for a lot of 2nd billed prestige roles.”

               Whom was he going to be second-billed to? The fact is that Cooper was petty much the biggest star going. His problem might have been turning down roles offered to him. He turned down two Hitchcock movies and later admitted that was a mistake.
               (I think his turning down Rhett Butler is more legend than truth. Selznick’s memos make clear he wanted Gable). He turned down The Seven Year Itch to act in The Court-Martial of Billy Mitchell. Marilyn, and I think any female star like Liz Taylor, would have gladly accepted second billing to appear with him, even past his prime.

               Which roles do you think he should have accepted second-billing to play?

               And actually, Cooper consistently appeared in prestige productions.

            5. Hey John….your comment has me thinking I need to find out a way to watch The Virginian. Even though I have already updated this page….I think I have close to 20 ir not more worldwide box office grosses on his movies…I need to go back and include those stats.

            6. Hey John…I agree…not sure anybody was going to push Cooper to second billing…..I think if he had made a movie with Gable or Grant (after he became a star) it would have been interesting to see who got the top billing…I imagine it would have been at the same time…when their names popped up on the screen.

            7. Cooper was great with dialogue early in his career – check his Lubitsch menage a trois comedy.

   2. “PART OF BEING A STAR ….YOU ARE TEAMED WITH OTHER BIG STARS.”
      1 Naturally but a star’s level of billing over the career entirety normally indicates his/her status within the film industry:

      1935 Myrna Loy/ Cary Grant in Wings in the Dark
      1936 Katharine Hepburn/Cary Grant in Sylvia Scarlett
      1938 Katharine Hepburn/Cary Grant in Bringing up Baby
      1938 Katharine Hepburn/Cary Grant in Holiday
      Then the Cary Grant we now know emerged as a major star
      1940 Cary Grant/Katharine Hepburn in Philadelphia Story
      1947 Cary Grant/Myrna Loy in Bachelor Knight
      1948 Cary Grant/Myrna Loy in Mr Blandings… Dream House

      1942 Veronica Lake/Alan Ladd in This Gun for Hire
      1942 Veronica Lake/Alan Ladd in Glass Key
      Then Ladd emerged as a major box office star
      1946 Alan Ladd/Veronica Lake in Blue Dahlia
      1948 Alan Ladd/ Veronica Lake in Saigon

      1945 Van Johnson/Esther Williams in Thrill of a Romance
      1946 Van Johnson/Esther Williams in Easy to Wed
      MGM at this point became aware of the Williams goldmine
      1950 Esther Williams/Van Johnson in the Duchess of Idaho
      1953 Esther Williams/Van Johnson in Easy to Love

      1951 Montgomery Clift/Elizabeth Taylor in A Place in the Sun
      1957 Montgomery Clift/Elizabeth Taylor in Raintree County
      Then Liz clawed her way to super-stardom as Maggie the Cat
      1959 Elizabeth Taylor/Montgomery Clift in Suddenly Last
      Summer

      2 As I have said in a previous post today between 1930 and 1980 Myrna Loy made some 70 movies and was top-billed in only 13 of them. If she had had the box office clout of say a Crawford, a Temple, or a Grable neither she nor her agents would have permitted that to happen at least in her heyday; and nor would studio executives wishing to maximize profits from her commercial appeal. Danny DeVito made a movie called Other People’s Money. For amusement someone might write a biography of Myrna or Samuel L Jackson entitled Other People’s Movies.

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      1. Hey Bob….thanks for billing lists….interesting how people like Grant and others moved up the billing list. Cooper and Grant made two movies together in the early 1930s….both times Grant was well behind Cooper. I wonder what would have happened if Grant and Cooper had made a movie together in the 1940s, the 1950s and the 1960s. I imagine Grant would have had to wait until the 1960s to get top billing.

         Good stats on Loy’s top billing. 13 of her movies starred William Powell….that team became huge…..and Loy was just as important as Powell in that success.

         I agree about Sam L. Jackson….but Loy is no way in the same category. At least Loy was a “above the title star”…..even if it was 2nd or 3rd billing. Good stuff from you as usual.

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         1. Archibald Leach was brought to Paramount as a threat to star Cooper, one inspiration for Cary Grant’s new monogram. Rosalind Russell served a similar purpose vs. Loy @ MGM, Luise Rainer also stepped in for Myrna when she left on a strike for a pay increase. There was talk of recasting Irene Dunne as Nora Charles, but Metro were rewarded when Myrna made the list of Top 10 box office attractions.

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      2. Hi Bob, the bad penny turns up again

         Your focus on billing I think distorts things a bit. The AFI picked Katherine Hepburn as the #1 all-time female star. Katherine Hepburn often accepted second billing. Grant, Tracy, Bogart, Elizabeth Taylor, Poitier, and Wayne were I think billed above her. Her lack of ego and pretension on this issue worked to her long-term advantage as a star. And she is not unique. Selznick didn’t want to loan Ingrid Bergman to MGM for Gaslight because Charles Boyer demanded top billing. Bergman essentially told Selznick “Who cares?” and convinced him to loan her. She won an Oscar. Does anyone think less of Vivien Leigh as Scarlett because she took second billing? Does Bergman’s turn in Casablanca diminish her because she is second billed? Nonsense. When it is all over and we look back at a career, what matters is the quality of the movies and the performances, at least to most of us. Who cares that much about billing?
         Myrna Loy, perhaps because she struggled to a bit to reach the top, seems never to have made a fuss about billing. In the long run, that helped her career as it made her easier to cast opposite major stars in major movies. Same as Hepburn.

         Billing is also only a snapshot of the time. Jennifer Jones was probably deservedly billed over a rising Gregory Peck and a slipping veteran Lillian Gish in Duel in the Sun. Looking back, though, with the perspective of time and hindsight, Peck and Gish had the better careers and were the long-term bigger stars.

         A final word on billing. I am still waiting for sometime to tell me they can’t wait to see John Boles in Frankenstein. He was billed above Boris Karloff.

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         1. HI JOHN:

            1 As always what you say is like the curate’s egg. Overall interesting and excellent in parts but missing the point in some other aspects at least from my own particular perspective. First to refine some of your factual information,

            (1) Grant was billed above Katie once and she was billed above him thrice in the earlier days.
            (2) Katie also took 2nd billing to Lancaster in The Rainmaker and Peter O’Toole in Lion in Winter [To an Englishman – ye Gods!] On posters at the time for Suddenly Last Summer Liz was always first and but in some posters Katie was billed second whilst in others she was billed 3rd after Monty Clift. Liz said in an old interview that by coincidence I watched last night that this was her favourite movie but John Wayne attacked it ferociously saying that it “poisoned the bloodstream of America.”
            (3) Tracy was obsessed with billing and apparently after dubbing Gable the King of Hollywood therefore opining that Gabe was the biggest star around Tracy sulked because MGM billed Clark above him in Boom Town.
            (4) Boyer was billed before Ingrid in Gaslight but they had compromise billing for Arch of Triumph and if you look at the poster in Wikipedia you’ll see what I mean.
            (5) Greg was billed after Jones in Duel in the Sun but above her in The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit.

            2 Now my reservations about what you say. Whilst I agree that in retrospect billing in old films [and in modern ones either] does not matter to most of today’s filmgoers and certainly has no bearing on a star’s legacy and legend it interests me because along with Box office grosses it helps me pinpoint a performer’s status at the time in which he/she thrived as a star. Bruce’s Grosses enthral me more than the billing issue however whereas Steve appears to have little interest in ancient grosses though I’m sure you do not object to either of us having his own ‘thing’.

            3 However it did matter to the stars of the old days because it defined their status and also a drop in it could affect their money. Whilst I don’t think it matters to the same extent today don’t kid yourself that they don’t care at all. For example whilst I do not know the up to date situation Cruise in the 90s had it in his contract that his name alone would be above the title in the posters for his films. Gene Hackman who starred in The Firm (1992) with Cruise asked to get billed alongside Tom in the posters but was refused. Rather than suffer the perceived indignity of being billed under the title Gene thereupon withdrew his name from the posters and it could be seen on the screen only. {See Trivia on IMDB]

            5 In 1960 British stars Peter Sellers and Richard Todd [Reagan’s co-star in The Hasty heart] made a film called Never Let Go and couldn’t agree on billing and their dispute became so protracted that filming was held up for several weeks causing British pop-artist co-star to wail to the press “I don’t know how it’s all going to end.”

            6 Anyway thanks for sharing with me your information about, and thoughts on. the billing issue. Have a good weekend BOB

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            1. Hey Bob….I agree with your thought on each of us having their own thing…..from billing to box office grosses to awards to Quigley to black and white versus color….everybody has something that they feel is important. And there is nothing wrong with that.

               I like your behind the scenes arguments of billing issues…..but I think above the title billing is also important…..not many AFI legends….had to deal with the screen credit….”and” or “with” or the really special credit of “special guest appearance by”.

               Interesting about Hackman and The Firm…..just re-watched A Bridge Too Far….and this time around it was Hackman’s performance that caught my eye the most….even though his Polish accent sometimes came out as English accent.

               Great stuff as usual.

         2. 🙂

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   3. Yes Bruce “no man is an island” but I have for private amusement done what you suggested and Gable, Tracy, the Duke etc still generate large grosses from movies in which there were were no other very top A list stars whereas in such an exercise Loy’s grosses go through the floor as you have personally expressed it. And again the point is that when they became big stars they were rarely or never billed second. Loy NEVER dominated at the box office in the way that those guys and Crawford etc did.

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      1. Hey Bob…..I am not sure Joan Crawford dominated the box office….yes she was in successful films…..but rarely where they Top 10 hits of the year…while The a Greatest Ever Loy had 12 Top 10 hits….sadly I do not have that information on Crawford.

         One day you will see the greatness of Loy….lol.

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         1. HI BRUCE

            1 By Crawford’s domination I meant in terms of securing her status by using her box office success to ensure dominant billing and THE LEAD in her movies for an amazingly long continuous period. If i recall correctly from her best days from say 1933 until 1959 she never accepted 2nd billing to any male and only once to a woman – Shearer in the The Women – and even then Joan apparently claimed Shearer “slept her way” to 1st billing.

            2 On the other hand Colbert for example was billed 3rd to Gable and Tracy in Boom Town; Dunne was listed 2nd to Tracy in Guy named Joe; Bergman accepted 2nd billing to Cooper twice,and to Bogie, Bing and Archie Leach, and Boyer all once each; Davis was billed 2nd to Cagney, Flynn, Leslie Howard and Paul Muni in the late 30s/early 40s; and Loy was billed below nearly everybody. Sorry if I misled you into thinking I meant solely statistical box office domination as I would always defer to you in that matter apart from Loy of course !

            3 Anyway for better or worse I feel that I’ve said all that I can say about poor Myrna so Shadow Man, Emeric DeBasco’s reincarnation, Flora or WHOEVER you are you can now maybe get us all fighting like rats in a sack over somebody else such as Elizabeth Hurley or Sandra Bullock. As it is I think the Loy one is the best bust up we’ve had since the Davis/Crawford debate.

            BOB

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            1. Hey Bob….got it….though I think you could argue….that while Joan always got top billing that after her Gable movies she did not really star opposite anybody that could challenge her top billing. Yes she worked with Garfield…and a very young Wayne….but if you look at her other co-stars…they are not too impressive.

               Actually one of the “strange” things I look at is how many co-stars have links on the UMR page….for Crawford…..of the 78 movies listed…she had 50 movies that had co-stars WITHOUT a link….which generally means….the co-stars she had….did not give out much star wattage. Plus of the 28 movies that have UMR links….9 of the them were Clark Gable.

               I think if she would have made movies with big stars…she would have had to take a lower billing…..but maybe (1) billing to her was more important than making good movies…and (2) this is why….with the exception of Mildred Pierce….when people mention a Joan Crawford movie….Mommie Dearest is the movie they are aware of…versus some of her actual movies.

               As I said in another e-mail…..pretty sure In The Shadows is not Flora….but I like the line about rats fighting in a bag….good stuff as always.

      2. Hi Bob. Sick of me yet?

         “Loy NEVER dominated at the box office the way . . . Crawford etc. did.”

         Well, lets compare Loy and Crawford using Cogerson’s data.

         ( ) for position of Myrna Loy films in ticket sales for that year

         The Best Years of Our Lives—-569.60 (1)
         The Great Ziegfeld—-347.20 (2)
         Test Pilot—-303.60 (4)
         The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer—-301.70 (13)
         The Rain’s Came—-283.00 (5)
         After the Thin Man—-223.90 (6)
         Cheaper by the Dozen—-222.00 (6)
         Too Hot to Handle—-203.20 (15)

         Joan Crawford

         Mildred Pierce—-239.90
         The Women—-203.60

         That’s it for Crawford for the over $200 million movies. Loy has 8 to Crawford’s 2. Loy’s number one film, in which she received top billing, for those who care, took in more at the box office than Crawford’s top two movies combined and by a large margin. Crawford’s top box-office film would only rank in 6th place on Loy’s list.

         Note that I restricted this comparison to movies in which Loy had star billing, so Airport 1975 (345.70) and Emma (215.90) are not included.

         Much has been made of Loy supposedly depending on her co-stars. Well, Gable is a good test. He co-starred 8 times with Crawford, and 7 times with Loy.

         The 7 Gable-Loy films grossed 1017.70 for an average of 145.4

         The 8 Crawford-Gable films grossed 976.80 for an average of 122.1

         I think the stats speak for themselves about who was “dominant” at the box office.

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         1. HI JOHN

            1 I never get sick arguing about movies or I would have quit this site long ago which you would understand if you look at the way in which Bruce, Steve and my early-days friend Flora have savaged some my observations. As it is I need Bruce’s stats and I build up a lot of additional knowledge from the exchanges and I won’t cut off my nose to spite my face just because others don’t agree with my way of looking at things.

            2 However If you have read my post above to Bruce you will see that my contentions about Crawford’s domination were not primarily statistically orientated but related more to the power that in my perception she was seemingly able to wield within the star system at that time.

            3 However I am grateful to you for the stats that you have rounded up as they interest me in themselves. I will have a think about them and maybe come back to you.
            BOB

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            1. Hi, Bob

               It is fun exchanging ideas with you. I was only teasing. My warped sense of humor.

               Bottom line on Myrna Loy and this debate, on which I may expand on another post,

               Is Myrna Loy “the most successful box-office star”–I don’t remember ever using this phrase, but nevertheless my take on it–yes, and no or only perhaps

               Yes–in a statistical sense, yes. She was in movies which sold more tickets than any other actress.

               No or only perhaps–Therefore she was the biggest box-office draw, or even one of the biggest. You are presenting the negative case, but I think are overstating it, focusing way too much on billing. If Joan Crawford had accepted second billing to appear in a couple of big hit John Wayne or Humphrey Bogart movies in the 1950’s, would this diminish her stature as a star? I don’t see that.

            2. Hey Bob….I think we have “savaged” your observations in a nice gentle way….lol. Now to check out John’s stats.

         2. HI JOHN

            1 it took me a while to realise that you and Steve were a couple of kidders and that Cogerson was a deadly serious person When Bruce told me that he didn’t think Superman Returns deserved to be credited to MB’s table I though “This guy’s a leg puller.” How wrong can one be? However “many a true word’s spoken in jest.” and I’ve learned quite a bit from our exchanges. A few extra thoughts just to keep the fun going:

            (1) You’re kinda putting the cart before the horse. Crawford was so big in her heyday that she didn’t HAVE TO take 2nd billing to anyone and didn’t need any other big stars. Between 1933 and 1958 Crawford was billed 2nd just once and that was to Shearer in The Women (1939) as Crawford was so keen to get the part and Shearer got in first with a guarantee of top billing. Indeed it is reported that when Joan was offered the part she said “Oh The WOMAN. Great – I’d like to do that one.
            (2) Wayne DID take 2nd billing to Crawford in Reunion in France in 1942 and after Red River in 1948 NOBODY would have got billed above the Duke. The partial exception was Jimmy Stewart in Liberty Valance (1962) where John Ford persuaded both Duke and Jimmy to share billing and John’s name came first on the screen and Jimmy’s on the posters, trailers and cast lists. I’ve never heard what Joan thought of the Duke but she did boast once that “Only Clark Gable has the b***s to match me on the screen.”
            (3) It’s not that I make too much of the billing issue or that taking 2nd billing harms reputations in retrospect. It is that the stars themselves fought like rats in a sack over it
            and the insistence upon it sadly stopped a lot of the big stars from appearing together.
            For example “Only one name goes above mine, Spencer Tracy,” said Bogie. However Katie Hepburn apparently said in an autobiography that when she tried to get both of them together in a movie neither would give up the top spot nor even compromise like Wayne/Stewart.
            (4) Peter Lorre said that he witnessed so many arguments and so much time wastage over billing that he grew tired of Hollywood, but let’s leave the final word to Katie about making Suddenly Last Summer,”I knew that as the biggest female box office star of that time Liz would expect to be billed first.”
            (5) I do agree with you that you don;’t have to be billed first to earn great respect. For example I admire Tom Hanks for accepting 2nd billing to Leo Di Caprio in Catch Me if You Can and Emma Thompson in Saving Mr Banks though he was bigger than both of them when those films were made. But in Old Hollywood it was usually not the case for as I’ve said before “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.”

            3 Anyway can nobody say anything provocative about Liz Hurley or Sandra Bullock so that we can get a real argument going and have some proper fun? BOB

            Reply

            1. I like the Lorre story…..I wonder if he argued with Greenstreet about who was going to be 4th or 5th billed?….lol. I read that Hurley was going to replace McCarthy in The Heat 2….it is going to be epic….plus Hurley has signed to make two sequels to Bedazzled…and a sequel to Double Whammy which will of course be called Triple Whammy and a sequel to The Weight of Water….which has a working title of The Weight of Ice….it is going to be epic.
               3. If only Box Office Mojo would have given Brando credit for his “other Superman” movie….then it would be on the UMR table.
               4. I am planning on adding the Marlon documentary to his page….plus I have a good new graph on his career….that is coming soon as well.
               Thanks for the comment and the information.

            2. Bob

               I think billing wasn’t only based on status. It was based on seniority. Shearer reached star billing before Crawford. So did Garbo. So they were billed over her when they appeared together as they were the senior stars. And all three of them were billed over 1930’s stars like Gable. MGM would have had to have been nuts to think Crawford or Shearer were bigger at the box office than Gable after the mid-thirties at the latest. Cogerson’s stats are pretty clear about that.

               If MGM had a salary cap back then like the NFL or the NBA has, and they had to choose between Gable and Crawford after 1935 or so, whom do you think they would have let go? Between Tracy and Crawford after 1938? Between Garson or Turner and Crawford after 1941? Between Garland and Crawford?

               I think the fact that they did let someone go and whom they let go tells us something.

         3. Hey John…..good stats. In an early comment to Bob….I came up with a hypothesis. I like my thinking enough to copy it here.

            that while Joan always got top billing that after her Gable movies she did not really star opposite anybody that could challenge her top billing. Yes she worked with Garfield…and a very young Wayne….but if you look at her other co-stars…they are not too impressive.

            Actually one of the “strange” things I look at is how many co-stars have links on the UMR page….for Crawford…..of the 78 movies listed…she had 50 movies that had co-stars WITHOUT a link….which generally means….the co-stars she had….did not give out much star wattage. Plus of the 28 movies that have UMR links….9 of the them were Clark Gable.

            I think if she would have made movies with big stars…she would have had to take a lower billing…..but maybe (1) billing to her was more important than making good movies…and (2) this is why….with the exception of Mildred Pierce….when people mention a Joan Crawford movie….Mommie Dearest is the movie they are aware of…versus some of her actual movies.

            I like the breakdown of Gable/Loy and Gable/Crawford movies….I am sure those movies helped Loy become the Queen to Gable’s King.

            8 to 2 in $200 million movies…..huge advantage for Loy.

            Good stuff….thanks for sharing this information.

            Reply

            1. Cogerson

               I think you hit on a excellent point.

               I appreciate that you are an historian digging out the primary sources and so telling us what really happened at the box office. You find the facts and go where the facts lead you.

               Loy turns out to be the top female ticket-seller.

               Now, I think it fair, and probably inevitable, that questions will be raised if this is, at least to some extent, a misleading statistic or fact.

               But what seems odd to me is that Joan Crawford is the stick used to beat Loy with. The more I study your information, the more I question her box office status. Her average gross isn’t that good. She had no monster hits. In fairness, she was a very durable star who was a star all the way back in the silent era. I think she was the only silent star still getting star billing in anything in the sixties. Can’t think of another anyway. But her career strikes me as sort of like a major league picture who wins 12 to 15 games per year over a long stretch. He ends with a lot of wins, but was never better than the second or third starter on his own teams.

               What is obvious is that after the she left MGM, for one reason or another, she rarely worked with another top star. Was this because a demand for top billing limited her? Or was it because no one was any longer interested in teaming her with a top star?

      3. You are wrong. Check the 1930’s list of Top Box Office attractions, Myrna #1 leading lady. Crawford, Hepburn, Dietrich all made the Box Office Poison list @ that time.

         Reply

3. I’ll bet there’s people out there frantically jotting down all these ultra-rare box office figures, where else on the net can you find these stats?

   Myrna Loy, number one box office actress in the movie-verse, who would have guessed? I’m so glad I produced a video on her.

   I may be wrong but I think what Bob is saying, in a nutshell, is that moviegoers of ‘yore’ weren’t going out to see a ‘Myrna Loy’ movie, unlike say a Hepburn or Garland movie, but they were happy to see her name on the poster alongside whoever she was with. My two cents worth.

   Reply

   1. You certainly have a way of cutting through the BS and you could have saved me a lot of time! However I’ve drafted three more posts on the subject so I may as well send them and have fun in wathcin you “nutshell” them. As always thanks for your interest and chit-chat

      Reply

   2. Steve (and Bob)

      But notice there is a difference between Hepburn and Garland movies. After she became a star, Garland was generally top-billed (unless it was in a “guest star” role in an all star production) in movie musicals built around her. Hepburn was quite different from 1940 on. I hadn’t thought much about it, but in her 12 MGM releases, she was top-billed only 3 times. In her 17 releases in the 1940’s and 1950’s, she was top-billed only 4 times. In her 21 releases from the 1940’s through the 1960’s, she was top-billed only 6 times. Her career is much more similar to Loy on billing after 1940 than it is to Garland.

      My question would be why are Hepburn’s second billed movies Hepburn movies, while Loy’s second-billed movies are not Loy movies?

      And, did folks have such a take in the 1940’s, or did Hepburn retroactively gain stature with her Oscar wins decades later?

      Reply

      1. 1 ANSWER Nobody has tied to claim that Hepburn was “the most successful female box office star of all time.” She was highly respected in her day but some of her legend is retrospective and indeed for a time she was labelled box office poison as indeed was Joan for a brief period. After all it’s only in retrospect that the accumulation of a star’s achievements CAN become truly legendary. Even Bruce wouldn’t have dubbed Cary Grant a legend after only a handful of films and when Cary was still sparkling with youth! The famed English critic ,historian and journalist Barry Norman [The Hollywood Greats books and TV programmes] said that the accolade ‘legend’ was grossly overused when applied to contemporary performers as it took time to become a legend.

         2 Though to be fair I think that Katie and Myrna were more preoccupied with acting whereas Crawford publicly stated that her absolute determination to be THE MOVIE QUEEN – and went for it. That was my point, Joan used the commercial success of her films to dominate the female star ladder as best she could and MGM made sure she normally got some of the best parts in their perception, commanding billing and maximum publicity.

         3 When our mutual friend John McCormack was at his peak as a singer he would appear at a favourite opera house in London and busses used to fly about the city bearing side posters saying just “McCormack” The name was enough to tell people where to go. Regarding Garland I would expect that she was such a goldmine that it was in MGM’s interests to ensure she got top billing and that everyone knew this was a ‘Judy Garland’ film

         4 Bruce mentions mentions how Brando “owned” the 1950s and for a few years in the early 1950s when a new Marlon movie appeared in Belfast the marquees would boringly read “Need we say any more, Marlon Brando is here” That’s what Crawford craved and probably it was not as important to Katie Hepburn or Loy but we can go only by what they did settle for and what the studios were prepared to accept.

         Reply

         1. And as Brando was to the ’50’s (if we overlook Monty, who got there 1st), so Wyler & Goldwyn wooed Myrna with top billing for Best Years of Our Lives – the perfect wife for post-War America to return to, Best Picture & biggest hit since GWTW.

            Reply

      2. 1 When I read some of the comments about Crawford it reminds me of a fiend responding to a comment that I made that was devoid of reality “Now tell us the one about the three bears.” Joining the 3 bears at the Goldilocks table should be:

         (1) Billing related to “seniority”. Sometimes and only among equals. But I’d liked to have seen someone trying to sell that one to Spencer Tracy.
         (2) Crawford had so few other major stars in her movies because maybe nobody of importance wanted to work with her. This is truly parallel universe stuff. The studios ruled the roost in those days and if it hadn’t suited MGM for Joan to appear in stand-alone movies she’d have been made accept other co-stars and if necessary 2nd billing and they’d have been told they had to work with with her. Many stars were often obliged to work with others they detested. Usually when stars risked suspension it was for better money and/or parts.

         2 OTHERS DUBIOUS POINTS
         (1) Gable bigger than Joan 1935-1939 Probably but did MGM immediately realise what a stand-alone box office star he was in relation to Crawford? Whereas according to you guys Joan possibly could get nobody of stature to work with her Clark had in his movies in the years 1933-39 big stars such as Tracy, MacDonald, Harlow, Colbert, Loretta Young and William Powell and of course 6 times “the most successful female box office star of all time” You fellas can’t have it all ways.
         (2) Departure from MGM. Joan had been with that studio for 18 years All relationships come to an end. MGM let Garland go in 1950 because she had become a nuisance and sacked Tracy on the spot in 1956 reducing him to crying like a baby. When Joan left MGM Warners snapped her up and guess what ?her first film with them (ignoring the ensemble Hollywood Canteen) was her biggest ever Cogerson hit and her second film with them lies 5th among her box office hits and her 3rd under the 3 picture deal Possessed was also a fair hit. In 1947 she signed with Fox for another hit Daisy Kenyon in which she was billed above Henry Fonda. But then maybe I’m the guy in the parallel universe and Fonda the 6th greatest AFI male legend of all time wasn’t really a big star or else he was forced to work with Joan and take 2nd billing all against his will.

         EXTRACT FROM WIKIPEDIA – “Check it out!”
         Growing increasingly frustrated over the size and quality of the parts she was given, Crawford embarked on a campaign of self-promotion. As MGM screenwriter Frederica Sagor Maas recalled, “No one decided to make Joan Crawford a star. Joan Crawford became a star because Joan Crawford decided to become a star.

         What a great force in the Hollywood of those days !

         3 By the way I take it you don’t approve of the Duke? You’re not going after him next are you. Don’t because if I may paraphrase Danny Kaye in White Christmas “He’s too big.”

         This is the American Film Institute’s list of the 50
         Greatest American Screen Legends, the top 25 male
         and top 25 female legends selected by more than
         1,800 leaders from across the film community from
         the list of 500.
         1. Katharine Hepburn
         2. Bette Davis
         3. Audrey Hepburn
         4. Ingrid Bergman
         5. Greta Garbo
         6. Marilyn Monroe
         7. Elizabeth Taylor
         8. Judy Garland
         9. Marlene Dietrich
         10. Joan Crawford
         11. Barbara Stanwyck
         12. Claudette Colbert
         13. Grace Kelly
         14. Ginger Rogers
         15. Mae West
         16. Vivien Leigh
         17. Lillian Gish
         18. Shirley Temple
         19. Rita Hayworth
         20. Lauren Bacall
         21. Sophia Loren
         22. Jean Harlow
         23. Carole Lombard

         Reply

         1. HI Bob,

            I’m enjoying exchanging views. It is fun for me.

            On John Wayne

            You quoted him thus

            “Coop was a miserable specimen of hero because ‘He allowed his wife to save him.'”

            Now, assuming this is an accurate quote–and I am sure you are quoting accurately from your source–it probably came from the Duke when he was in his cups and just running on because it is not a very thoughtful statement.

            Wayne was a big star, but it doesn’t follow we should all genuflect when he makes a silly comment.

            It is wrong in fact as Will Kane didn’t “allow” his wife to do anything. She intervened on her own. He couldn’t stop her. Nor did he ever ask her. He tried to form a posse and when that failed, faced the four outlaws alone.

            And in my viewing of the movie, her intervention was not clearly necessary to save him. He was holding his own and had killed two of the four before she became involved. She did shoot one of the outlaws, but in getting captured by Miller and used as a hostage, she ended up forcing Cooper to expose himself to being shot. Her struggle saved him, or better allowed him to save himself.

            You quote the AFI list of female legends in support of Crawford. Fair enough. But the same AFI listed Will Kane as their number 5 all-time movie hero, well ahead of any of John Wayne’s roles. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

            Reply

            1. 🙂

         2. Hi Bob

            Most of what you post here doesn’t deal with my comment, which was restricted to after Crawford left MGM.

            There is no doubt she appeared with all kinds of stars at MGM.

            So did Gable, of course, but many of his movies were huge hits. Crawford not so much.
            After 1937, especially, it appears she was in and out off the stats given from the Eddie Mannix register reprinted with the articles on her films on Wikipedia.

            I still think the fact that MGM let her go in 1943 is a tip off. But she did stick it to ol’ Louie B. with her success at Warners.

            Reply

         3. Very very familiar with this list…..thanks for sharing it….so many great stars in this list.

            Reply

4. 1 Yes Bruce but surely those stats must be placed within their proper context .Temple was carrying most if not all of those as ‘Shirley Temple’ movies. whereas Loy was surrounded by Tracy, Gable,Bill Powell, Harlow, Rosalind Russell, Walter Pidgeon and on occasions even a large combination of them Shirley Temple had the likes of just Alice Faye, Robert Young, and and up and coming Randy Scott none of whom were billed beside her above the title.

   2 “We KNOW Alan Ladd is a very popular star because his films make a lot of money and for the most part there’s nothing but Ladd in them.” Or better still “Take away everything but Myrna Loy’s stand alone movies and her grosses would go through the floor.” Bruce Cogerson on this site a few months ago.

   3 Loy WAS s a great star and a fine and entertaining actress who deserves credit for her contribution to the success of many of her films. However to unequivocally state that she was “the most successful box office actress of all time” is in my opinion hyperbole, or at least too broad a reading of box office stats in the way that you and I have agreed that those who claim that Samuel L is the highest grossing box office star ever are possibly ignoring the real story behind his stats and perhaps out of snobbery close their minds to the massive stand-alone commercial success of Willis.

   4 Also Shirley might not have been the best example to pick to make a case for Myrna. King Gable, Tracy, the Duke, Bud, Grant, Stewart, Day all ALSO appeared alongside greater stars and many more stars than little Shirley ever did, but in my opinion the difference was that those Greats when they were at their peak were almost invariably billed first which was the industry’s way of recognising that they were the ones who could best carry a film. On the other hand – and you can check this out by going through the posters and cast lists in Wikipedia and IMDB – Myrna made some 70 film between 1930 and 1980 and was billed first in only 13 of them. Hardly the Spencer Tracy of the ladies!

   5 But let’s leave the last word to a member of an acting dynasty who one must suppose has known something of stardom, “Danny, Vera and I all loved being in White Christmas but we all knew full well that it was Bing’s show.” – Rosemary Clooney.

   Reply

5. Hey Bob….so I went and looked at 1935 to 1938…..and looked at Loy and Temple….this was the peak of Temple’s carer.

   So during that 4 year span…Temple made 13 movies that grossed…..$1.81 billion

   Meanwhile…Loy made 11 movies that grossed $2.08 billion…so even in Temple’s peak she was outgrossing and her in total and in average.

   Reply

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